Summary of Cost Savings and Job Security Agreement Available Online on Tuesday, May 17

by Larry Dorman on May 16th

A detailed summary of the framework of the tentative agreement between the State Employees Bargaining Agent Coalition (SEBAC) and the Malloy Administration will be posted online Tuesday, May 17, 2011. 

The summary is currently being distributed to leaders of the 15 individual unions in the coalition in advance of being accessible to the public at SEBAC’s “In This Together CT” website, where it will be linked tomorrow.

The goal is to allow the elected leaders of each of the unions in SEBAC to initiate the process of informing their members of the details in the framework signed on Friday. Members are urged to contact their individual union’s leadership for additional questions or concerns on the process of receiving and disseminating details.

This is a complicated agreement and SEBAC leaders are working hard to make sure information is presented as concisely and accurately as possible to the approximately 45,000 members of our unions.

The coalition’s unions are presently planning membership meetings in order to fully explain the details of the framework of the tentative agreement and to answer members’ questions .

Once again the patience that state public service workers have showed over the past few days as their union leaders have worked to inform them is greatly appreciated.

To learn more about SEBAC’s campaign for a better budget and a livable state with great public services visit www.InThisTogetherCT.org.

57 Responses to “Summary of Cost Savings and Job Security Agreement Available Online on Tuesday, May 17”

  1. fed up Says:

    What are the unions giving back?

  2. SoonToRetire Says:

    Waiting…….. Usually takes a long time to spin something positive.

  3. Brian Swanson Says:

    Need line by line description of the tentative agreement not a summary please.

  4. Richard Says:

    I will need to see the actual language of the agreement, not a synopsis, framework, summary, outline or other interpretation of the agreement; and with enough time to make a reasoned decision. Otherwise, my vote is NO.

  5. Brian Swanson Says:

    If you can’t wait till tomorrow go to CTNEWSJUNKIE and download the summary from Christine Stuart’s article it is a 6 page summary thanks

  6. Tier II and close to retirement Says:

    Am I reading this correctly? In the AN INVESTMENT IN RETIREE HEALTHCARE section it says that anyone that does not presently contribute to the Retiree Healthcare fund will have to contribute 1/2%-2%-3% in the next 3 years. Isn’t that Tier II only? Won’t that basically turn Tier II’s into Tier IIA’s? It doesn’t ask for an increased contribution from Tier I’s or IIA’s? This would basically nullify any colas that the Tier II’s receive. This hardly seems equitable. If this is the case, I would vote NO and urge other Tier II’s to do so as well. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I hope I am.

  7. Just say no! Says:

    I don’t want a summary I want to see the whole thing, and I dont care about the framework, I care about the details.

    NO!

  8. Tier2Employee Says:

    Brian-Thanks for the headsup. I went o CTNEWSJUNKIE. The agreement appears to really hurt long term (20+ years) Tier2 Employees who due to age will not be close to retirement for years.

  9. Christine Japely Says:

    Let’s not forget that Governor Malloy must also reduce the ranks of higher management and must also reduce their perks and bloated salaries. The new commissioner of education in our adjoining state, New York, has asked his salary to be lowered (from 250K to 212K). http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2011/05/introducing-nys-ed-commish-john-king-jr

    Let’s take that as a cue. I hope Governor Malloy understands that money can be saved in eliminating much of the bloat at the top. We can get excellent people to serve as managers; we don’t have to pay them three to four times the salary of the average state worker.

  10. Good S Worker Says:

    you cant just get rid of unionized overpaid employees. It is not that easy. If they get laid off, they just bump lowest senority. I wish it were that easy..

  11. missy Says:

    Big Brother medical? NO WAY – leadership must think we’re crazy!!

  12. sebac failed Says:

    Not just no–HELL NO

    Where’s the shared sacrifice, where’s the wealthy and corporations share? Sebac failed.

  13. Just say no! Says:

    No’

  14. Just say no! Says:

    We cannot let them get into the sebac agreement!
    Furlough days, ok. Wage freeze ok. Benefits and pension? No!

  15. rankandfile Says:

    Mandatory colonoscopy? I guess we literally are going to bend over this time…
    Well, not exactly mandatory. You can choose a $350 deductible and $100 per month extra for your premiums instead.
    All so we can keep our 120 day wonders. And so managers can continue to get 10 times the longevity we do. And new chairs for the commissioner’s office maybe. And more Lisa Moody types can retire at 51. And buses no one will ride. And a billion dollar built in surplus. And one manager for every six employees, etc. etc.
    Half a percent for healthcare the 3rd year, then 2%, then 3% the 5th year. So it’s really more like 0,0, 2 1/2, 1,0

  16. Good S Worker Says:

    lets just wait to see what the “real” deal is then make our votes. I hope we get to vote on individual parts of the deal. I am not liking the healthcare part either. I dont mind payin more of a co pay but i think part of this is a major violation in HIPAA rights! Also, Dr’s offices are not great about giving you your annuals on time or at all! I think that the healthcare, from what i read is kind of scary. But i want to see the whole picture before i make up my vote. I totally understand your issue on managers-overpaid but the state cannot get rid of them. They will bump a lower level person, just so they can get their retirement even though they wont know a thing about their job and are not used to working as real workers are. I love having a union! I repeat, i love having a union! But the deals made years ago are hurting us now. We currently have progressive union leaders to help create the building blocks for a realistic future. But that was not the case 20-30 years ago.

    As for the mandatory colonoscopy, well i will take the propofol and a day off! Why not!

  17. jonny appleseed Says:

    For the health part they make you sign saying you will get an annual physical but they can not check as it violates HIPPA. Its the honor system.. Still – I will vote NO on Concessions..

  18. Dwilson Says:

    Vote no let chips fall where they may. I can not afford to lose anymore money whether it is a wage freeze or paying more for benefits. Let’s condense the layers from the top down for a change.

  19. Math Teacher Says:

    Just to correct rankandfile:

    The 1/2%, 2%, 3% payments into retirement healthcare are not cumulative, so the COLA increases would look more like 0, 0, 2.5, 1.5, 2 – not what is posted above.

  20. Carl Says:

    Thanks Brian! It’s saddens me that I have to get the news this way and not from my union reps that I pays dues for to protect their jobs. This is only my 6th year of State service and I am tired of this already. I can see the writing on the wall of my future. What kind of future can I depend on when all it takes is a governer to threaten us with layoffs and our union leaders give in everytime telling us that it’s better than the alternative???

    In my opinion, we can go through this every 2 years and give back more of what we were promised in the past when government lied to us. Malloy will do the same. He is only a politician trying to make a name for himself and could care less about his promises. He will open up the contract again in 2 years when his budget is due and ask for more from us because he knows SEBAC will give in again!!

    It’s a win-win situation for Malloy, because he can protect the rich from taxes and pick on us because our union is week unless we take a stand now and vote no to any consessions!! How many times are we going to change a contract that we depend on to make our own personal budgets? We make decisions on purchases for our families that require contracts signed by us to financial institutions. Can we tell them that I’m sorry, but I can’t pay you anymore?? I think not because we would be in big trouble!!

    I’m tired of all this and I’m voting NO!!!

  21. Christine Japely Says:

    Good S Worker: I’m referring to the non-unionized managerial bloat. The CSU chancellor with the 400K salary who was finally forced to resign is the “poster-child” for this. But there’s plenty of that still remaining, and union members will be watching Governor Malloy carefully to ensure that he reduces the waste at the non-unionized top. If the Rowland-Rell years of “no accountability, no oversight” are indeed over, then money can be saved by eliminating bloated salaries and duplicative management.

  22. Wm. Dinenno Says:

    First off who the heck do they think they are dictating what and who is going to tend to my health issues. And second of all now I’m going to get penalized to the tune of $1950 because I don’t want to sign my privacy away and disclose my medical history to a third party. So much for the HEPA law.Thats good, my job gave me certain medical conditions because of the lack of sleep during the winter season. Welcome comrade to the socialist republic of Connecticut. VOTE NO!! P.S. I’m an NP2, tier I, you people are insane!

  23. Observer1 Says:

    This agreement is the BEST we could have done! We have to vote “yes!” I was thinking it was going to be pretty hard to swallow, but, as it turns out, it’s an easy to understand basic contract. No lay-offs, no increase in $ for drugs (actually cheaper co-pays if you have one of the 5 listed “bad” diseases), 3 raises of 3% each (which is nearly impossible to find in the private sector), and no changes to your pension/retirement schedule (unless you are planning on retiring after 2022, not 2017 as has been reported). This could have been much, much worse! And it will be worse if we vote “no.” Do yourself, your co-workers, and the other people of CT a favor and vote “Yes!!!!”
    Just another note: voting “no” means that Governor Malloy will probably be defeated in his re-election bid, and Foley, who WILL run again, will win and privatize at lease 2 – 3 departments (DSS, DDS and/or DRS). DCF and DOC will follow in his second term, which he WILL will again if he privatizes in his first term. Keep this in mind people… we have a whole LOT MORE to loose if we vote “no.”

  24. Ctintrouble Says:

    And why should we have any confidence that Malloy will live up to this agreement when he wants to refute the prior agreement SEBAC negotiated with Gov. Rell? Don’t be a fool-if the economy gets worse Malloy will come back next year and ask for more concessions. Malloy and the state have not lived up to the prior concession agreement and as such their word and agreement is worthless. If he can’t abide by the terms of the prior signed agreement what makes anyone think he can be trusted to live up to this latest proposal?

  25. PleasantlySurprised Says:

    I’m pleasantly surprised by this plan. Job security for 4 years? Imagine, not having to worry about your job for the next 4 years. In this economy. That is an INCREDIBLE deal. We keep our pensions and health care, and we have no furlough days! That is basically a raise for all of us. We have taken furlough days for the last 2 years, now we get to keep that money.

    As for paying for retiree healthcare, we have to be realistic. It’s expensive, and all we have to do is pay 3% of our salary for 10 years to have healthcare throughout our retirement? Not a horrible deal. It is also phased in reasonably for long-time employees to avoid anyone ever seeing actual pay cuts.

    As for those worried about being “forced” to go to the doctor, this seems like the wave of the future to me and exactly the type of thing we need if we want “universal health care.” Go to the doctor and stay healthy. How is that a bad thing? As for giving up confidentiality–that isn’t the case. It is your insurance company that would be monitoring whether you see your PCP at least once a year, and they already have that information because they get billed when you visit. No HIPAA violation.

    Please vote “YES!” everyone. Minimal effects on salary and benefits (with raises built in) and 4 years of job security! You won’t find that in the private sector and a “No” vote = 4700 layoffs immediately, then more layoffs due to further cuts that will be necessary. Then every year going forward, there will be still more layoffs to deal with a continuing deficit. Vote “Yes” and we are left alone until at least 2015 (and hopefully the economy will have rebounded by then!).

  26. Dave Says:

    Did you read the TRANSFORMATION part A and B. They are going to spend more money on over payed people to form 2 new Committees! OH and I’m sure Gov. Malloy get to appoint his people to these positions.
    Now that’s another good reason to vote NO!

  27. laurie duffany Says:

    This is as good as it gets…I have worked for 29 years for the state with an understanding of a decent retirement…But at the same time I have been on the chopping blockes at least 4 times. I love what I do and I am hanging in there..because I still want to serve our consumers. I still love helping to make a better quality of life for our consumers and their parents.
    The parents of our consumers are weary….much more weary than any typical person can imagine. These are the people that are usually affected by cuts…….However this time it doesn’t appear that they will be affected. Malloy ….personally you might be my enemy but professionally you are my colleage… at least I think so…

  28. rankandfile Says:

    The last concession included 2 years of 3%, now we’re losing one of those. What makes you think we’ll get the next ones? No changes to retirement or health benefits before 2017 if you vote no, and after that it would be subject to negotiation. How can you be sure we’d get a worse deal in 2017 than we would in 2022? Or that we wouldn’t be forced into something in 2014, where we give up more and they extend it to 2025?

  29. Just say no! Says:

    The only thing we can bargain away and then get back later is jobs. Vote no, healthcare and pension are lost forever once we give them up.

  30. laughing out loud Says:

    Just like the Governor’s and “financial Crisis” of the past we will neverrrr see the 3%.. You would have to be a fool to actually believe that Malloy intends on actually allowing us to receive any raise or compensation, an excuse; as it aways does will arise a few years from now that requires the re-opening of SEBAC and all contract negotiations, and as our fearless and clueless leader would say “shared cost savings” I speak for myself and most of my fellow NP-4 members when I say we will all be voting no on this insulting contract and pillaging of barely surviving state employees.

  31. Math Teacher Says:

    The no layoff protection goes for 4 years (to 2015) so it highly unlikely that there would be any ‘forcing’ into a worse deal before then (much like this deal did not come before the 2 year protection was over in the last one). If that is your concern, think about this as being a 4 year deal (assuming the worst) when making you descision.

    Still seems to be better than I had expected going in (of course, I would like to see the details for myself, rather than relying on a summary).

  32. Tier II and close to retirement Says:

    R&F: Just for the record, the last concession gave us 2 yrs. at 2.5% after 2 0’s. But that’s a good point, we will lose the 2nd 2.5%, so we will have one lousy 2.5% raise in 4 yrs.

  33. MAC Says:

    Any changes to hazadous duty employees retirement with 20 years and out who work for the DOC?

  34. Wm. Dinenno Says:

    First off I have to say I’m sorry for the outburst in my previous reply. Now that I have read the agreement, it looks good. As far as signing a promise for agressive diligence tending to ones health issues, my wife and I already do what the agreement ask for. Given whats at stake, the agreement should be ratified. Don’t be fooled by the media on anything thats reported about this agreement. P.S. still a tier 1/NP2.

  35. Pam Says:

    I’m glad that the unions agreed to something, to keep 4,700 employees employed. But the governor mentioned that the rest of Connecticut will be paying higher taxes. Did he not forget that we are also the rest of Connecticut. Therefore, we are getting hit twice, concessions and higher taxes. I am for the furlough days. I don’t think negotiated health insurance and retirement is the way to go. Working for the State and the Federal Government really doesn’t have as much perks as people would like to believe. Back in the day, maybe, but not today. I make as much money as I did in the private sector and in the private sector my health insurance was better, but I chose to work in with state not for the perks but for the job. I love what I do and I feel that I am able to help people. This is what I spent years going to college for. I agree, I don’t have a problem giving concessions, but health insurance and retirment, is very important.

  36. rb Says:

    Where is the summary? Hey leadership…wake up. Most laborers don’t keep bankers
    hours. We need to see the official report, not rely on “leaked” info. Hurry up!

  37. B. Graham Says:

    THANKS FOR THE SHORT SELL SEBAC….WE WOULD MAKE OUT BETTER WITH THE LAYOFF’S………..

  38. state worker Says:

    b graham get a clue!!

  39. Amy Says:

    This is ridiculous. If we agree to this what comes next? They will want more from us as far as medical the next time. The State should have no involvement in my personal and medical life. Next time will they tell me because I have a family history of cancer that I must stop smoking or I will get penalized? Or will it be that if I have Diabetes in my family history that I will have to stay within a certain weight limit before I get penalized/fines? What if I do not want to take the medication or treatment that the State believes would be beneficial to me because of my own personal beliefs or because I do not like the side effects? Are they going to let mee accrue extra sick time to comply with their medical plan? Stay out of our personal lives!

    I am Tier 2 and was supposed to get a 2.5% raise in a few weeks and then another increase in January, if this passes I will not get either and those 3% raises in three years that are projected I will likely never see, as I’m sure the contract will be renegotiated again before we ever see a 3% raise. Even if it does pass and we get the 3% raise eventually, it’s all a wash because we are going to be required to start paying 3% into our retirement anyway. So we will be even worse off then we are now.

    In the 20 years working for the State I have not seen more than just a handful of raises. The medical and pension changes hurt us more than any furlough ever could. Don’t let this deal pass people, it will be the beginning of the end. Keep the State out of our medical and private lives.

  40. whiskeytangofoxtrot Says:

    to “rankandfile” – I AGREE!!! (“bend-over” haha!)
    I know management has bills to pay too, but come on!!! They’re the ones collecting huge longevity checks, but it’s only being taken away One Time! It seems to me the upper echelon of this workforce is still being ‘taken care of’ while the rest of us low earners shoulder the brunt.
    Just thinking about Moody and that DUI Senator friend of Wyman’s who now has a new 100g a year job, is making me want to vote no. They’re just going to come back again just before our 3% is supposed to kick in and ‘rectify’ the new fiscal crisis we will be no doubt facing…

  41. member np2 Says:

    I have already lost 5 steps while working for the state.When does it end they want 1.6 billion from the unions but I see there is a 900 million dollar project in the budget to expand uconn med center.Money the state doesn’t have.We have more state of the art medical faciltys then you can shake a stick at.I watched the senate the other night play the party politcs game for 3 hours no matter how good the idea the vote always remains the same 22 to 14 ever wonder why the economy is so messed up and nothing gets done tune in sometime and watch your politions in action or non action as i see it.When I need to buy something I have to save for it not rape the people who serve me.We as state workers pay our taxes like everone else but when the goverment messes up they want us to pick up the tab.Price of living goes up, taxes go, up gas goes up, and we get no raises for 2 years this will really hurt the middle class.please vote no

  42. Tier II and close to retirement Says:

    To answer my own question: I was wrong saying that the contribution to the retiree healthcare fund would turn Tier II’s into Tier IIA’s. I confused the RHCF with the retirement fund. Tier IIA’s contribute to both while Tier I’s contribute just to the retirement fund and Tier II’s contribute to neither. This agreement would have both Tier I’s & II’s contribute to the healthcare fund. I didn’t want to leave people with bad info.

  43. Workin to 85 Says:

    I have read this agreement and was intially for it. After careful reading, even as a union steward, I can’t sell this agreement as posted. Tier II and IIA employees are being sold down the river for the sake of Tier I employees. I am curious if it passes federal HIPPA laws as well. I would take the layoff and still have better benefits under the Obama extention of unemployment benefits. Think about it, in the private sector you can select you own doctors and dentist. This plan sounds like Malloy wants to do that for you. I guess he came close to $20,000 in benefit cuts from a $38,000 job. SEIU really needs those dues…

  44. Catherine Says:

    Value Options is a DEAL BREAKER. I will vote NO. More Managed Care on Top of Managed Care? How much is Value Options getting paid & who are they connected to?
    Are the State Reps & Senators on the same mandatory colonoscopy plan?? Will some Tech in a cubicle be calling them to make sure they are taking their meds & getting their teeth cleaned? Demeaning
    I understand the give backs & the paying more for insurance. Financial blackmail requiring giving up privacy & the Dr. Patient relationship or pay $100 more per month for insurance, really? What are all the details of Value Options, not just the summary? SEBAC needs to stand up and not be afraid.

  45. cap Says:

    Why don”t I have a copy of the agreement or at least one published on your website
    until I see this I will consider all other information heresay and or rumor… It is your responsibility to provide us with information and a copy of the agreement….
    Why does the press have this stuff and not our membeship??????

  46. Hardtimer Says:

    So as a Tier2A for 13yrs. tell me if I’m wrong. If the vote is NO, workers get laid off, and all this other hootenanny in this 6pg agreement will be null n void? The risk will be in 2017 to modify my pension, medical etc. The DOC votes on Thurs and what a horrible explanation of the framework. It looks like a bunch of smoke and mirrors to me, just like Gas prices, the owner of Citgo made 39 billion in profits this year while the middle class is going broke, just like what this agreement will do to us, good job SEBAC and how much did all this nagotiations cost us, because staying up until 3am to negotiate isn’t free!

  47. BB Says:

    Having been laid off during Rowland’s reign with 12 years of vested service and not yet 55, this proposed deal would completely deny me medical benefits and significantly reduce my monthly pension payment (especially over the long run). I’m sure there are many others who are outside now but still vulnerable to changes to the state’s benefit structure. It makes sense to alter the structure for new hires as they will know and agree to the terms when they sign on. It also makes sense to increase contributions to the healthcare program, but to deny medical coverage to those of us who have served and relied upon the tier II program and its pension payment formula is downright cruel.

  48. Just say no! Says:

    There is no reason to ratify this agreement, not one. We have a contract through 2017. See you then.

  49. Tony Says:

    How can the DOC vote on Thursday? Full details have not been disclosed and the “Value Added Plan” has not even been created by our Health Care Providers. Is this a “pass it then see what it means” situation? I would take it a little more seriously than that.

  50. Warren Pattberg Says:

    The SEBAC agreement was designed to PROTECT the rights of what the employees and retirees had fought so hard to realize, Healthcare and pension rights obviously at the forefront. Now I’m retired and they want to dilute what I already have. I don’t even have a vote on this as a retiree!!!!!!! Just say NO!!!!

  51. Good S Worker Says:

    BB then the whole agreement is a sham! If only new employees were effected by the new retirement structure then this would not effect the current budget. Trust me, as far as retirement goes, we are ALL getting a raw deal but the long timers are not SUFFERING! Most of you, i say most have much higher pay then newcomers……Please, i wont retire til i am dead so i dont really care about those who planned! I do feel sorry for your plans being ruined a bit but i dont think i will get my violins out for you!

  52. Good S Worker Says:

    PLEASE DONT THINK I AM BEING MEAN. I came from the private sector. This is nothing….

  53. jp Says:

    This deal is so bad it doesn’t even make nonsense!!!
    as union steward a recommend voting NO

  54. Not a Scapegoat Says:

    We were supposed to be protected for 2 years. HELLO! This will not be a 4 year deal any more than the current concessions amounted to the 2 year deal as promised. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss… don’t get fooled again.

  55. Shirley Says:

    People are soooooo misinformed about items in this tentative agreement. The value based healthcare piece is NOT a case of big brother snaking his way into our medical lives. The point of the plan is to encourage a wellness conversation and program with ones own primary care physician/general practitioner. The plan codifies what we SHOULD be doing in order to maintain our healthy well-being. IF YOU DON’T WANT TO BE IN THE VALUE BASED HEALTH PLAN, DON’T SUBSCRIBE TO IT! Stop bitching and moaning. The standard health care plan is $100 more per month with an added deductible. Opt for the Standard health care plan and be done with it.
    Regarding the retiree health care trust fund, this has been an unfunded liability for years and years. This practice is completely out of touch with current economic times. We should be paying towards our lifetime health care. I can appreciate the phase-in aspect versus the full body hit.
    Yeah, it sucks not getting a raise, but you know what sucks even more… not getting an income. People need to stop acting like crybabies, look at the bigger picture, and get some common sense. The agreement needs to be ratified!

  56. Fed Up Says:

    Shirley, you’ve got to be kidding. Contracts are not made to be broken. We have a contract on health and pension good until 2017 and it should be honored. What’s to stop them from coming back for more and more, until we have lost much of what we have worked so hard for. I started working in the late 70’s (yes, I’m one of those Tier I’s) but I believe we are doing a disservice to most of the state workers by voting Yes for this agreement. Thousands of us came into the state, not for the pay, but for the benefits. Now Malloy and the Unions are taking away what is very valuable to us. If we give in now, they will continue to take, until we have little left. I don’t mind giving my fair share (I’m willing to take furlough days, etc) but clearly the Governor nor SEBAC had that in the cards. We will certainly not agree to this farce of an agreement. I am voting no on this and I certainly hope others will do the same. We really have to band together and stop this madness. The more details that come out on this plan, the more it is making me sick. Please vote NO.

  57. Good S Worker Says:

    Dear SEBAC, Why is swearing allowed on this website?????? SHIRLEY. You hae issues. You know, i have been thinking about this and it just dawned on me that all employees are pitted against one another. Regardless of what we all say, we all have a contract! The contract should not be altered to the degree in which it is and this ratification, well again it is a case where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. There is a woman named helen on the last feed that i cannot post to anymore, read it! She is one of the stuck up high end state employees that makes 100g a year and drives a station wagon! She said too much for me to not know who she is. Makes 100g a year, thinks she is untouchable and believes that this healthcare plan is for the greater good of our health. GIVE ME A BREAK! Pleasssseee. Give us all a break. She is one that states she has money in the bank for retirement anf has fought real hard for what she has??? Really, how bout Techincal Support investigate your computer and see how many non-state activites you have had on it! DURING WORK HOURS!

    This is just sad. No one wins. My household will be gone if i lose my job but i cannot afford the new package deal anyways so why vote yes. Like most, the unemployment is probably better than the alternative. This package if a no vote, will probably leave the state unemployment rate at about 12%! ”

    Well, this is what Notradamus?? predicted…. The world will come to an end as we know it. Only traces of human kindness will exist.

    WE AS STATE EMPLOYEES—- we are all vulnerable to loss of jobs! And its true, a contract is a contract. I dont care what the public says about us, but we are people. Bad government is what makes us look bad. Not one governor that i can remember has said we have good people working for the state. Not one to defend us. They will do what they have to do to get the votes. Sorry, venting and real sad.

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